Herodotus: The Histories

September 2007

CAMI

I was really quite surprised at how much I enjoyed reading the book. What an amazing interpretation! I really felt like Herodotus was just a guy telling us some interesting facts while throwing in his own opinion and judgment occasionally. It didn’t feel ancient or unreachable to me. Fabulous.

Cannibalism, prostitution, slavery, murder, greed, war, incest, slander, human sacrifice and desecration, ridiculous rituals and customs, feminism, political scandal, sexual deviance, self-fulfilling prophesy . . . what did these people NOT delve in? And yet there was honor, a general agreement of right and wrong, sophisticated government, community laws and customs, religion, fear of god, and Herodotus giving us his opinion about the morality and probability of it all. It’s amazing how much and really how little has changed in all these years.

JANICE

I really enjoyed this first known social history, learning about the B.C. world with all its barbarisms, weirdnesses, atrocities, and tyrannies, and also its honor, sacrifice, bravery, and love of freedom. I see how whole cultures have come to pass and when it comes to human nature there is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes). EXCEPT one thing: Herodotus did not mention the terrible sexualization of children which we are seeing today. Histories of civilzations all have a lot in common, I suppose because the earth's resources and human nature are timeless. Like I just read in A Canticle for Leibowitz, if everything was destroyed and man started over, the same sort of things would be rediscovered, the same kind of wars fought, the same types of tyrants wrould rise to power, the same train of troubles would evolve. Everyone needs to read Herodotus. He was a wise man, wiser than many of our leaders today. His words help me understand the climate and tone of the times, and how Jesus coming caused such a huge spiritual upheaval.

JULIA

Yay, a few more pages and I'll be done with The Histories, a long and sometimes arduous battle, but full of familiar tales, characters, predicaments, and parallels in my own life as well as history that I have personally witnessed.

Now the tale is told and read. Thank you Herodotus. Thank you translator, Aubrey de Selincourt. The language was colorful and fun to read, H. was a great observer and story-teller, and philosopher. On page 595, "Many things make it plain to me that the hand of God is active in human affairs . . . giving every man greater courage for the coming battle and fiercer determination to risk his life for his country." Amen.

Euripides: Ten Plays

January -- March 2007

CAMI

My friend asked me the other day if I liked reading the Greek stuff, if it was any good. It was sort of a hard question to answer. It’s not my favorite reading material, and I’m not sure I’ll ever revisit it, but my answer was, “Well, I’m learning a lot, and it’s good to have a foundation for modern literature.” And that is true. There is so much in these little plays that contributes to Shakespeare, or modern plays, or even just classic stories and allusions in other literature, that it’s hard to say these are not worth reading.

[Here are some notes from the summaries of each play]: . . . you just never know what consequences your selfish actions will bring (Alcestis). She uses reason and emotion to get what she wants, which is basically for everyone to suffer as she does (Medea). Lives are destroyed for crimes not actually committed. Just our thoughts are enough to destroy us (Hippolytus). I always wonder what those spoils of war are thinking once they are handed over as slaves. It was interesting to see a woman's life (a slave's life) valued in a literary way during this time (Trojan Women). It all just seemed so futile and hypocritical to me (Electra). Don't fight agains the worst sides of yourself, just use them sparingly. Very interesting. It's something we haven't really seen quite this way in the Greeks yet (The Bacchants).

JANICE

I soon saw why Aristotle called Euripides "the most tragic of the poets." Because he portrayed damaged souls at their worst, not how people could or ought to be, we are forced to face the results of raw, unrestrained, and (supposed) irredeemable human nature. Of all the plays we read I liked Hippolytus the best, because it points out that way back in the 400s B.C. people had some very strict rules for sexual morality, even in thought. As the miserable Pheadra who is lusting after her stepson says, "My hands are clean. It is my soul that's fouled." But she has no way out of her sin (no sense of agency and no Savior) except death. I loved this quote: "What brashness has the human heart? How far will it push? Is there any limit to its brazen nerve?" It goes on to say how the gods will have to create a bigger earth to hold all such depraved individuals. I thought Euripides' supposed masterpiece, The Bacchae, was horrific. To me it simply showed how lawlessness leads to loss of all sense of civility and loyalty and results in disorder and bloody, pointless tragedy. How ripe the world was for Christianity!


JULIA

I finished Euripedes last week but have taken so long, I've forgotten the first 4 plays so will have to say I liked BACCHANTS and THE TROJAN WOMEN the most since I actually remember them.

I thought BACCHANTS was the most timely play. I swear this passage, "These were young mothers who had left their infants behind and still had their breasts swollen with milk," mirrored the Britney Spears of our day. The greusome Agave/Pentheus scene when A. doesn't realize she has murdered her own son, scattered pieces of him, mounts his head on the thrysus thinking it is a lion's head, showed to me the blindness and denial of wanton wickedness and drink. It destroys those closest to you while butchering yourself into little pieces.

Sophocles: The Oedipus Cycle

December 2006-January 2007

CAMI

I was really looking forward to reading the Oedipus cycle, since it is still so widely cited today. If you don’t know who Oedipus was and what his problems were, then you are behind the times.

What I thought was interesting about Oedipus Rex was the responsibility taken for something which was not really his fault—or at least intended. In our own lives, we might have learned things from our parents or society that make us behave a certain way without knowing it to be wrong, and yet it destroys and inhibits us nonetheless. Good is good, and bad is bad, no matter the intention. With Oedipus at Colonus, I was much more interested than I expected to be. It was interesting to see Oedipus years later when he’s had time to think of his situation. He felt innocent and yet unworthy at the same time. It seems he has not been able to forgive himself, or it at least shows the damage that some things can do to us, without redemption. Antigone, as a loving daughter, sister, and strong woman, was the easiest character for me to identify with. Antigone is willing to die for what she believes in. Here is a great line: “You will remember what things I suffer, and at what men’s hands, because I would not transgress the laws of heaven.”

Fadiman wrote that Aristotle told that Sophocles said he tried to portray people as they ought to be. (How’s that for removed?) I certainly see that in what we read. A great read, an inspiring story, and an important accomplishment!

JANICE

My favorite of the Oedypus cycle was Antigone, the Joan of Arc of ancient Greece. She never wavered in her religious principles even under intense pressure, even death. Of course this theme has been repeated throughout history, and continues today with Christians being challenged and vilified. The play asks, What if your country (or any other institution you rely on) goes bad? What does the individiual do? Antigone chose to die rather than give up her freedom to do what was right. In Oedipus Rex I liked how he was not afraid to seek the truth at all costs, even when it threatened his own happiness and peace. He found that "he [was] not the measure of all things but the thing measured and found wanting." Our society today often reflects the false idea that humans have no free will -- a devil-made-me-do-it attitude. Then we have Oedipus who was dealt such terrible cards and yet knew he was not a puppet in the end. To me these plays are about free will, saying that man (unless under constraint) is responsible for everything he thinks and does.


JULIA

"Poised on the razor edge of fate" pretty much sums up these plays. Oedipus thought he was circumnavigating the prophecy but instead played directly into it. His heart was in the right place. In the introduction, this passage helped me to understnad our reasons for reading Sophocles and what we can take from it, "Oedipus did have one freedom. He was free to find out or not find out the truth. One freedom was delivered to him: the freedom to search for truth about the prophecies, about the gods, about himself. And of all this freedom he makes full use. . . ." . . . .There are a few things we have absolute control over in spite of the wiles of the gods and life's fateful dealings and that is the things we choose to think--0ur attitude . . . We are seeking the truth about ourselves when we write journals.

The Only Human Freedom

I wonder at all the workings
of fate, predestination, plan,
randomness. Do the gods pull
our earthly puppet strings,
do we move when manipulated?

Or do we resist, pull loose,
exercise what we think is choice
only to find this is also design?
I imagine my father as a boy,
the influences that spawned me.

Who would I be if mother married
another? My head hurts of thinking,
mysteries of DNA, chance, deestiny.
I go to the kitchen, brew tea, sip
warmth in winter, read Sophocles,

pit Oedipus, see life as full
of good fortune and bad, realize
acceptance is the great lesson suffering teaches us and the one
great freedom we all have

is to search
and to find
the heroic and noble
truth
about ourselves.

1/4/07

Aeschylus: The Oresteia

October - November 2006

CAMI

So here is a quote to Jake from me last night: “Go away! This guy is about to kill his mother who killed his father who killed his sister and now the Gods are going to kill him!” Only I was wrong. They didn’t kill him. Instead we have some sort of euphoric ending where Athena distracts the Furies into forgetting about their revenge. Hmmm. . . too bad no one else was distracted. It seems like revenge was the heart of this story.

Here is what I thought of Agamemnon. I thought the whole thing sounded so much like a horrible abuse cycle. Everything was about passing the blame (usually to destiny) and how there was no agency. The Libation Bearers, my favorite. In this one I see both Electra and Orestes try to break the cycle. I see at least some sort of moral conflict rather than everything justice, justice, justice. The Eumenides was just like watching an episode of “Law and Order.” It was all about semantics, persuasion, the battle for glory in the courtroom. This trial stopped being about justice, and started being about who could cause enough confusion for the question to be forgotten.

All in all, I found these plays to be much more accessible to modern days than I thought they would be. I was pleased to see they read so much like Shakespeare (it felt just like reading King Lear, what with all the family members killing each other), but I was really glad of the summary Mom gave me about the family curse.

JANICE

Luckily, my edition's intro explained the family curse or I would have been lost. To me these plays were just one big act of human infamy after another, showing the worst side of humanity. There was not a redeeming quality in anyone. No forgiveness, no patience, no humility, no personal sacrifice, no mercy. Only selfishness, pride, and revenge, which was rightly shown as bad. I guess the gods let Orestes off the hook because he had a good reason to go temporarlily insane. But so did Clytemnestra what with her husband killing her daughter. I think the gods just didn't want to deal with the mess anymore. Even they were at a loss. The story was interesting, what with the proud purple robes entrapping proud Agamemnon, the old lesson that two wrongs don't make a right, how one crime can bring on another and revenge is the worst motivation. Sure glad this was fiction. Horrible! The skeletons in this family's closet beat all.

JULIA

Just finished The Orestia Trilogy by Aeschylus. I liked the last book the best, The Furies. It was like a court case to see if Orestes would be found guilty. I guess it was a hung jury. The plays read like Shakespeare and the more I got into it, the more I liked it, my eyes and inner voice moving along in rhythm to iambic pentameter. It was fun to see some common phrases we use now, like "red-handed." The argument about who is the REAL parent was interesting. The argument favored the father as the mother was merely a womb for his seed. Didn't they know the woman contributed an egg?

My favorite quote form A. is by Electra when she says, "Children are memory's voices, and preserve/The dead from wholly dying, as a net/Is ever by the buoyant corks upheld."

Confucius: The Analects

September-October 2006

CAMI

Cami said: "A gentleman reads those that have come before him, even if they say the same things he finds everywhere else." That is my summary of Confucius. Although I have underlined and written in the margins more in this book than any yet, I found this has been the least "enlightening" so far! Maybe it was the lack of journey, of analogy, of character. We're just supposed to read and ponder these tidbits of truth? And while, yes, many are true, I found few to be profound. . . . This all makes it sound like I hated it--on the contrary, I couldn't put it down. . . . Maybe it was because the truth I found in it was familiar and comfortable.

So anyway, I cam away with what I found to be truth, and let slip out of my mind those things which I did not need. I think the master would approve.

JANICE

I was glad to learn that the man we know as Confucius was Kung Fu, if I understand corrrectly, who taught the ancient arts of self-defense and meditation and oriental philosophy, for want of better terms. . . . I think this was a very wise man with very idealistic and correct ideas in the eternal scheme of things, but not religious. He did not believe that man is fallen and in need of redemption. He believed man was essentially good. He taught people to strive for the loftiest human potential and acto out of the noblest motivations possible. He taught uncommon sense and uncommon goodness, and for that we can be grateful, but he did not teach devotion to or reliance on God.

Nevertheless, I am grateful for Confucius and the like because here we have proof that a standard of goodness has existed for millennia, a standard which is relatively suddenly being uprooted by a few lucky people with influence and power, and replaced with a new standard based only on the whims and proclivities of one generation . . .

JULIA

Reading Confucius was a calm and welcome respite after the bloody battles of The Iliad and the harrowing adventures of The Odyssey. As I read, I was amazed at the desire by C.'s followers to record all those ideas on how to be a good person. Do very many people care about that anymore? Just the idea that these suggestions and rules were important to the ancients gives me hope that all civilizations have had good and virtuous people striving to be better. It made me want to be better.

I got the idea that actually living these virtues was more of a goal than a reality. It was like reading distilled scripture without the parables, the cast of characters, the geography and the long chpaters. . . . May we all try for this enlightenment and perhaps make up our own 5 good and 4 bad rules.

Homer: The Odyssey

September-November 2006

CAMI

Well, if The Iliad was like hiking a mountain, then The Odessy was like a mountain bike ride down it: it’s bumpy, it’s a little scary, but it’s much faster. Not to mention it’s much more exciting. I think knowing the background and war-based culture of the characters was helpful in understanding the sort of moral-free glory hunting that occurred in the story, and allowed me to concentrate on the adventure.

What struck me the most about all this, was his attitude about it. We, as readers, know how involved the gods were in each voyage and each danger Ulysses encountered. And yet when he talked with Minerva face to face, he asked why she had left him alone. He had boasted in his own strength. He thought he truly was the hero of his own life. Even in the Iliad we knew that neither side could win without the grace of the gods. It’s funny how easily Ulysses forgot his own weakness. But Minerva forgave his weakness and restored him to his kingdom. Parallels every which way in this story.

JANICE

. . . I agree with Cami on how different the two books are in tone and setting. The Iliad was more crashing armor and blood and dust and death while the Odyssey wias more yearning, cunning, relationships, intrigue, ocean. Is this Sea vs. Earth? Yin vs. Yang? Masculine vs. Feminie? Opposition in all things?

I just found something I wrote in my journal a few weeks ago. "In this reading I'm doing . . . I feel as if I have joined up with the part of the human race most valuable to know. The best of the great thinkers are alike in the most important ways. Having read (at last) the Iliad and the Odyssey, I am no longer in the dark when references are made which they more frequently than expected are. When this happens it's like meeting an old friend in turning a corner, and knowing immediately who they are inside even though the conversation is shallow and superfluous. It makes me smile with a certain intellectual glee and surprised gratitude. It is not my doing but some act of grace that I should have this little joy. Things MEAN something now. Thank you."

JULIA

Yay! I just finished The Odyssey, all 324 pages. What a trip it has been. . . . Most of the adventures were familiar. One thing I found quite interesting was the double standard issue. Penelope waits two decades, faithful the whole time, and Odysseus never apologizes or even admits his indescretions. . . . Apparently P. was one tough Mom, being the sole parent to bring up her son. . . . I understand P. a little because when my husband went for months at a time to Guam and I had the responsibility of children and household, it took me a while to let the resentment go and I was hard as flint when he would return home.

MARATHON ODYSSEY

First Half

Even before rosy-fingered dawn,
I hear Sirens' tempting strain,
disuading me to honor my pledge,
but I know day is full of promise,
with favorable winds, fated skies.

And so it is I meet with others
similarly equipped for journeying
with their fierce jaws of determination
and their layered disposable armour
suitable to fend off iciness of morn.

Gods blow at our backs, this sea of life,
canyon road smooth like silver water
under first rays of golden sun,
our bodies afloat, legs churning
to move us gloriously through the miles

Second Half

I notice how all of us seem lost
in our own struggle, central to ourselves,
each toiling life no small matter
but one of great and mythic concern.
I glimpse islands of distraction,
doubtful thoughts of victory arise.

As if Zeus hears my mind, he sends Athene
to cause a honeyed pear to fall to me.
I see it there glistening under a tree
unmarred on its bed of gentle grass,
nectar-sweet, a gift of sustaining grace.

Energy replaces confusion, fear
fruit a sign I will taste sweet
success. I feel myself being weaved
into the loom of other lives
as on and on we run toward Ithaca.

Top of Utah Marathon
Logan, UT 9-23-06

Homer: The Iliad

July 2006

CAMI

Jake asked me if The Iliad was good and after a long pause I said, "I don't know how to respond to that question." I guess I didn't have in mind that I was reading for pleasure. However, unlike some books I've read for pleasure, I did look forward to picking it up, I did enjoy reading it (even though it often put me to sleep), and I do feel like I've accomplished something. So I guess that makes it a "good" book. I'm not sure I actually get to make that judgment for the world, but for myself, I'm glad I have conquered it.

No one was really noble, good, or especially more heroic than anyone else. I was glad to know that as this story was told orally, the audience was made up of people from all over, so each of their local heroes were given their day in the sun. I could appreciate more the new and short-lived characters knowing that they were there for a reason. But, Achilles or Hector . . . who am I rooting for? Even Zeus didn't know the answer to that question. . . . But to me, it seemed like the mortals were at the mercy of the will of the ever-changing gods. Really, the only thing you could do is try to make good decisions, give the glory to the gods, and hope their will is for you to conquer in the end. What do you know. It has more application than I realized.

JANICE

Aside form all the craziness, I feel good about making this effort. I am getting a teeny tiny inkling of how the ancient Greeks had their effect on western civilization in the last 3000 years. Homer pulls no punches in exposing human nature. Even his gods and goddesses and kings and heros are pathetically petty and flawed, always wanting glory, jumping to conclusions, worried about what everyone else thinks about them, self-interested above all. Isn't mankind still dealing with these same old issues? It gives you a sense of timelessness and spacelessness, like Mom alluded to in her letter. We are all children of one God and this earth is really a very small place.

JULIA

I'm almost finished with this marathon of a book. It reminds me of reading Moby Dick. I felt so virtuous. The patterns of defeat, battle, victory, intervention, fate, ego, greed, power, violence, continue with each page. It is all becoming familiar, especially the constant metaphors and when I pick it up to read, it is like something I've read before, mythical, like our own unpredictable lives. Because of the gods, wounded warriors can be miraculously healed. Responsibility still rests on the soldiers, the care to put on their armour and helmets, to hold up their shields.

In the Beginning . . .

Some notes from the conception of our club:

CAMI:

I am personally glad to be on this journey with members of at least two of those thousands of lifetimes I have not led. I think three generations of ideas, experiences, and emotions is just about as good as we're going to get, and I will appreciate learning from our accumulated knowledge, as well as from that of the world. . . So, fellow learners, sisters, and matriarchs of my life, I am ready to find these timeless truths with you. I'll try to keep copies of all our correspondence in a safe place. What an amazing record we'll have!!! Let's follow through! Let's encourage each other! Let's also be patient with ourselves, because I've tried to read Don Quixote before, and it's no picnic.

JANICE

. . . I am looking forward to starting a special little journal for this project to keep these letters and any other insights organized somewhat. I loved drawing and painting my map of the world in my Giant Journal. Without being perfectionistic, I tried to get the shapes and proportions right and learned a lot about the relationships of the countries and the finiteness of our world. We learn so much more by applying our own hand.

JULIA

As I worked on my hand drawn map of the world, I had a few thoughts. I am a little person living in an isolated little bubble. All of us in this world have in common the classics. This fact alone should pop that bubble and help to make us feel closer to each other. . . . I have so much to learn about the world, the words that have been written and the philosophies that have emerged. . . . It is very thrilling to begin on a course of study that I have been neglecting. Thanks to C. Fadiman, I understand why the classics are an important part of our heritage. I plan to be diligent, but not hyper, kind to myself, not critical at how dumb I am. . . . Let's share our insights and enjoy this great conversation. Read or scim, concentrate on what really speaks to us and remember this is a LIFETIME reading plan.

Time for Serious Blogging

Ok, the Classics Club has had our first in-person meeting since beginning our quest for education. We set a few time goals, and made plans for our on-line publication plan. So here it is:

We will continue to write our letters to the three members at the end of each book. However, now we are all going to TRY to remember to write a paragraph summary at the end of the letter that will be used for posting on the blog. I, Cami, am going to back-blog our other letters, using whichever excerpts of the letters I deem exciting and informative. This may take some time. Be patient.

SO, that means, that not only will the three of us be able to view our accomplishments and insights at a glance, but those of you who may be checking in on us from time to time will be able to get a little review of each book as we go along. It will not be comprehensive, but it will be semi-informative at least.

Good luck to me, and to us being able to get through Thucidytes in one month!! Sheesh!